Evaluando la serie 730

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e_tran
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Re: Evaluando la serie 730

Mensajepor e_tran » 12 Ago 2013, 18:52

Hope my translations can help with this, because I think the post is very interesting... (espero que mis traducciones puedan ayudar a que sven siga participando, ya que creo que el post era muy interesante)
delacuesta escribió:Sven,

With all due respect, I'm afraid that your contributions will remain unread or badly understood by most, and that your questions will remain unanswered.
First: This is not a multilingual forum; the sole forum language is Spanish.
Second: Only a small part of the forum users (most of which reside in Spain) will master the necessary level of English to be able to follow your highly technical idiom. For instance, "Genset" is not in my English dictionary.

I would advise against trying to produce Spanish by Google-Translate or such machines. Just translate your contribution to Spanish and then back to English to see how incomprehensible the result is.

All in all, I think you better find an other forum, where English is accepted.

Kind regards,

Delacuesta

----

Para los que no leen Inglés: He avisado a Sven que el idioma de este foro es Castellano, y que sus aportaciones son tan técnico que sean dificil de comprender mismo para los que hablan algo de Inglés. Pues casi nadie le leerá o comprenderá, y no habrá respuesta a su pregunta.

Su pregunta: ¿Qual es la longitud tipica de un anden en España (es decir, qual es la longitid máxima de un tren de de larga distancia)? ¿400m como en gran parte de Europa?

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Re: Evaluando la serie 730

Mensajepor ferroviario_2 » 12 Ago 2013, 19:29

Por mi parte, estoy básicamente de acuerdo con Sven. Si el comportamiento dinámico en curva del S-130 ya no es tan bueno como el de una composición Talgo clásica (solo con rodales), si encima le añadimos los CETs con un boje más y un centro de gravedad super alto, el resultado está a la vista.

En mi opinión, para hacer del S-730 un modelo "exportable", habría que rediseñar completamente las cabezas tractoras y corregir en la medida de lo posible los problemas mencionados.

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Re: Evaluando la serie 730

Mensajepor heineken » 12 Ago 2013, 19:51

e_tran escribió:My translation may not be totally accurate, and, in fact, I have used a Google-based one which I have corrected, but I hope it is still understandable.

Much better than my spanish, of course! :D
Re-translating back to english (using Google translator) gives, overall, an image that fits my original words.

But I disagree with your analysis, sven, (…)

For sure, Talgo has not to be blamed, that this desaster had happenend:
First, the cab driver did not what he was committed to (going in the brakes, kilometers before the curve).
Second, the absence of any technical observation, against faulty actions by the cab driver – in front of a peril point like the curve out of the LAV is. In my point of view this a fault of ADIF and /or their regulatory authority (BTW, who is this in spain?)
But, third, this desaster could have been »just« an serious accident (badly enough) instead of getting as fatal as we had to see, if this unlucky combination of well designed coaches (the Talgo-7 coaches) with such a »sub-optimal« design of genset coach did not have been in an articulated train set.

I do not have any problem with the S-130 (Talgo 250) train set.
But with the S-730 (S-130H, Talgo 250Hibrido), I do.

And I don´t think it is a bad thing to use previous developments, which are part of the know-how.

For me it really looks like they are weak in developments outside the classic Talgo-technology, like the superious Pendular-system.

I.e. just this single detail, using the »de-motorized« bogie for the genset coach, with the push-pull string I mentioned (»overkill«): Such a bogie's weight is about:
– motorized Bo' bogie: Around 18 tons. (example: Siemens SF1, used in ES64U2 locos)
– additional weight for the gauge-changer frame (the rigid steel part between axle and primary suspension): Around 2 tons (2 pieces per bogie, 1 ton each).
– push-pull string: About (absolutely estimated) up to 500 kg.
So, now you have to deduct the two drive units (motor and gearbox), a hardly comparable unit from Bombardier (Mitrac drive unit, nose suspended, though) about 2 tons.
18 tons + 0,5 tons + 2 tons - 4 tons = 16,5 tons. For a non powered bogie!
Compared to i.e. a MD 52x bogie, max. speed 160 to 280 km/h, max. axle load 16t, and a weight of 6,1 to 7,5 ton not just a small difference.

The question about the platform size... the answer is in the network declaration. Hope someone will type it here soon.

Thx. I have the recent one on my computer. Should take a look into … :oops:

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Re: Evaluando la serie 730

Mensajepor delacuesta » 12 Ago 2013, 22:35

Bien, reculo.

Agradezco a las aportaciones que contribuen al dialogo con Sven.

Sven: It appears I have been too harsh on you. My apologies.

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Re: Evaluando la serie 730

Mensajepor delacuesta » 12 Ago 2013, 22:54

Ah, y he decargado la declaración del red.

La longitud máxima varia entre líneas. Para LAV es 400, para otros puede ser menos, puede ser mas. Por ejemple, P.ej. León - A Coruña 290m, Medina del Campo - Ourense 300m.

In English: Maximum train length for HSLs is 400m, and can be lower but also higher than that for other lines . E.g. the León - A Coruña line has 290m and the Medina del Campo - Ourense line has 300m.

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Re: Evaluando la serie 730

Mensajepor ferroviario_2 » 13 Ago 2013, 09:48

carlos64 escribió:
zoltan escribió:Mira los bitrac de CAF. Es posible hacerlo si se hace con cabezas tractoras nuevas, pero como había que aprovecharlas, pues eso.

¡Y desarrollamos una rodadura Co'Co' con cambio de ancho apta para Tipo 250!

Está claro que las BITRAC no están diseñadas para AV, pero el mérito es de CAF al haber conseguido un diseño tan compacto de una locomotora híbrida. Y si quieres un boje Bo'Bo' tipo 250 mira éste:

Imagen

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Re: Evaluando la serie 730

Mensajepor e_tran » 13 Ago 2013, 10:29

Voy traduciendo. En el primer párrafo, Sven agradece la traducción y confirma que, acorde a Google translator, se ajusta bastante bien a lo que quería decir... A por los siguientes
heineken escribió:
e_tran escribió:My translation may not be totally accurate, and, in fact, I have used a Google-based one which I have corrected, but I hope it is still understandable.

Much better than my spanish, of course! :D
Re-translating back to english (using Google translator) gives, overall, an image that fits my original words.

But I disagree with your analysis, sven, (…)

For sure, Talgo has not to be blamed, that this desaster had happenend:
First, the cab driver did not what he was committed to (going in the brakes, kilometers before the curve).
Second, the absence of any technical observation, against faulty actions by the cab driver – in front of a peril point like the curve out of the LAV is. In my point of view this a fault of ADIF and /or their regulatory authority (BTW, who is this in spain?)
But, third, this desaster could have been »just« an serious accident (badly enough) instead of getting as fatal as we had to see, if this unlucky combination of well designed coaches (the Talgo-7 coaches) with such a »sub-optimal« design of genset coach did not have been in an articulated train set.

I do not have any problem with the S-130 (Talgo 250) train set.
But with the S-730 (S-130H, Talgo 250Hibrido), I do.


Cuando discrepo del análisis de Sven, argumenta lo siguiente:
"Por supuesto, no hay que culpar a Talgo del desastre ocurrido. Primero, porque [yo aquí añadiría un 'presuntamente' ;)] el maquinista no hizo lo que se esperaba, accionar los frenos kilómetros antes de la curva. Segundo, por la falta de supervisión tecnológica que evitara despistes del maquinista, ante un peligro como es la curva a la salida de la LAV. Desde mi punto de vista, es un error de adif o su autoridad reguladora (por cierto: cuál es esa autoridad reguladora en España?)

Pero, en tercer lugar, el desastre se podría haber quedado en "solo" un grave accidente (que ya sería bastante malo) si esa desafortunada combinación de coches bien diseñados (los Talgo7) con el generador de diseño subóptimo no hubiera estado en esta unidad de tren articulada.

No tengo ningún problema con el S130, pero sí con el S730

And I don´t think it is a bad thing to use previous developments, which are part of the know-how.

For me it really looks like they are weak in developments outside the classic Talgo-technology, like the superious Pendular-system.

I.e. just this single detail, using the »de-motorized« bogie for the genset coach, with the push-pull string I mentioned (»overkill«): Such a bogie's weight is about:
– motorized Bo' bogie: Around 18 tons. (example: Siemens SF1, used in ES64U2 locos)
– additional weight for the gauge-changer frame (the rigid steel part between axle and primary suspension): Around 2 tons (2 pieces per bogie, 1 ton each).
– push-pull string: About (absolutely estimated) up to 500 kg.
So, now you have to deduct the two drive units (motor and gearbox), a hardly comparable unit from Bombardier (Mitrac drive unit, nose suspended, though) about 2 tons.
18 tons + 0,5 tons + 2 tons - 4 tons = 16,5 tons. For a non powered bogie!
Compared to i.e. a MD 52x bogie, max. speed 160 to 280 km/h, max. axle load 16t, and a weight of 6,1 to 7,5 ton not just a small difference.

"A mi me parece que no son potentes en desarrollos fuera de la tecnología clásica Talgo, como el sistema Pendular, que es superior.
Un ejemplo con un detalle, usando el bogie "desmotorizado" para el generador, con la configuración push pull (la que antes llamaba "exagerada". El peso en ese bogie queda:
- Bogie Bo' motorizado: sobre 18 toneladas (por ejemplo, Siemens SF1, usado en locomotoras ES64U2)
- Peso adicional para el equipamiento de cambio de ancho: sobre 2 toneladas (dos piezas por bogie, de una tonelada cada una)
Ahora, de ahí hay que restar dos unidades de conducción (motor y transmisión). Cogiendolo de una unidad ligeramente comparable de bombardier (Mitrac), sobre 2 toneladas)
18+0.5+2-4=16.5 toneladas. Para un bogie portante!
Comparado, por ejemplo, con un MD 52x, de velocidad máxima 160 a 280, carga por eje 16t y un peso entre 6.1 y 7.5t, la diferencia no es pequeña"
The question about the platform size... the answer is in the network declaration. Hope someone will type it here soon.

Thx. I have the recent one on my computer. Should take a look into … :oops:

Ha descargado la declaración de red y le echará un vistazo :)

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Re: Evaluando la serie 730

Mensajepor e_tran » 13 Ago 2013, 10:38

Sven, I still think it is too easy to say what would have happened if... because we will never know. But, as I have said several times, I think no train could have avoided derailment in such speed conditions. And the jump from 'serious accident' to 'disaster', in my opinion, comes more from the fact that the station was near and most people standing up and taking luggages than from the material type. And this, unfortunately, would have been the same in any train model.

Creo que es muy facil especular con lo que hubiera pasado si... porque nuca lo sabremos. Pero, como he dicho varias veces, creo que ningún tren hubiera escapado al descarrilamiento en esas condiciones de velocidad. Y el salto conceptual de 'accidente grave' a 'desastre', en mi opinión, viene más por el hecho de que se estaba llegando a la estación y la mayoría de la gente estaría de pie y cogiendo los equipajes, que por el tipo de tren. Y eso, por desgracia, hubiera sido exactamente lo mismo en cualquier modelo.

It is true that Talgo has litte experience in locomotives, but.... maybe that is why Bombardier designed this part?

Siendo cierto que Talgo tenía poca experiencia en locomotoras... puedes ser por ello que Bombardier se encargara de esta parte?

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Re: Evaluando la serie 730

Mensajepor heineken » 13 Ago 2013, 10:51

delacuesta escribió:La longitud máxima varia entre líneas. Para LAV es 400, para otros puede ser menos, puede ser mas. Por ejemple, P.ej. León - A Coruña 290m, Medina del Campo - Ourense 300m.

In English: Maximum train length for HSLs is 400m, and can be lower but also higher than that for other lines . E.g. the León - A Coruña line has 290m and the Medina del Campo - Ourense line has 300m.


Thx. So it needs to checked the maximum lengths allowed on the whole route. Which, if I am right, does »only« effect then the stops between Medina del Campo and Ferrol.
But sounds realistic, that the maximum platform length was an issue by designing the genset coach.

Obviously, it was not the pinnacle of engineering. ;-(

delacuesta escribió:Sven: It appears I have been too harsh on you. My apologies.

You're welcome.
No problem, a user of DSO (german railway enthusiasts forum) is used to stand up to the wind. 8)

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Re: Evaluando la serie 730

Mensajepor e_tran » 13 Ago 2013, 12:13

heineken escribió:
delacuesta escribió:La longitud máxima varia entre líneas. Para LAV es 400, para otros puede ser menos, puede ser mas. Por ejemple, P.ej. León - A Coruña 290m, Medina del Campo - Ourense 300m.

In English: Maximum train length for HSLs is 400m, and can be lower but also higher than that for other lines . E.g. the León - A Coruña line has 290m and the Medina del Campo - Ourense line has 300m.


Thx. So it needs to checked the maximum lengths allowed on the whole route. Which, if I am right, does »only« effect then the stops between Medina del Campo and Ferrol.
But sounds realistic, that the maximum platform length was an issue by designing the genset coach.

Obviously, it was not the pinnacle of engineering. ;-(


Traduzco:

"Gracias. así que habría que comprobar la máxima longitud en la ruta completa. Lo que afecta, si no estoy equivocado, "solo" a las paradas entre Medina y Ferrol. Pero suena plausible que la longitud de los andenes fuera una condición de diseño para el generador.

Obviamente, no es ingeniería punta... :("

Y respondo:

El tren no ha sido diseñado especificamente para esa linea, aunque sí era una de las más fuertes candidatas, por lo tanto, aunque lo que comentas es plausible... no pondría la mano en el fuego por ello. Respecto a lo de la ingenieria punta... conoces la historia del diseño de trasbordador espacial y los caballos romanos de antes de cristo? ;)

___


The train has not been specipically designed for this line, but it was one of the strongest candidates, so, what you comment is possible, but, not sure.

And about the pinnacle of engeneering... do you know the story about the space shuttle design and the roman horses' butts? ;)

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Re: Evaluando la serie 730

Mensajepor heineken » 14 Ago 2013, 08:24

e_tran escribió:The train has not been specipically designed for this line, but it was one of the strongest candidates, so, what you comment is possible, but, not sure.

Thx. My thought was even why they did the design as they did it. If they had left the Talgo end coaches in the train set, and put in a genset coach like 2'2', noboby would need to talk about now on this sad topic.

And about the pinnacle of engeneering... do you know the story about the space shuttle design and the roman horses' butts? ;)

Yes, for sure! 8)

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Re: Evaluando la serie 730

Mensajepor e_tran » 14 Ago 2013, 08:44

Comenta sven que intenta entender los motivos para hacer el diseño así, porque, Dice, manteniendo los coches extremos traigo, y poniendo un generador 2'2' nadie tendía que hablar de esto. Comenta también que conoce la historia que le mencionaba antes.

Y yo discrepo con sven. Creo que el exceso de velocidad era lo bastante grande para que cualquier tren hubiera acabado saliendo, como he dicho muchas veces.

I strongly disagree, sven. The the overspeed was so high that any train would have crashed, in my opinion.

Y yo
heineken escribió:
e_tran escribió:The train has not been specipically designed for this line, but it was one of the strongest candidates, so, what you comment is possible, but, not sure.

Thx. My thought was even why they did the design as they did it. If they had left the Talgo end coaches in the train set, and put in a genset coach like 2'2', noboby would need to talk about now on this sad topic.

And about the pinnacle of engeneering... do you know the story about the space shuttle design and the roman horses' butts? ;)

Yes, for sure! 8)


Enviado desde mi GT-I9100 usando Tapatalk 2

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Re: Evaluando la serie 730

Mensajepor tochito » 14 Ago 2013, 11:48

Yo eso es algo que todavía no he comprendido ... y en su momento ya lo expuse en este foro.

Porque no hicieron un solo 'tender' generador con dos bojes, vistos los pesos no habría ningún problema en ello. Además se habría perdido un coche menos por rama.

Otra cuestión es que, además, ese coche técnico fuera de 'quita y pon' ya que su única finalidad sería proporcionar energía eléctrica. Se colocaría entre una de las tractoras y el coche extremo adyacente, manteniendo las ramas tal cual, sin sustituir los coches extremos, sólo quitando un coche intermedio y dejando los extremos de Talgo como tales.

Pero, no deja de ser una elucubración propia ....

Saludos.

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Re: Evaluando la serie 730

Mensajepor heineken » 14 Ago 2013, 13:00

e_tran escribió:Comenta sven que intenta entender los motivos para hacer el diseño así, porque, Dice, manteniendo los coches extremos traigo, y poniendo un generador 2'2' nadie tendía que hablar de esto. Comenta también que conoce la historia que le mencionaba antes.

Y yo discrepo con sven. Creo que el exceso de velocidad era lo bastante grande para que cualquier tren hubiera acabado saliendo, como he dicho muchas veces.

I strongly disagree, sven. The the overspeed was so high that any train would have crashed, in my opinion.


As I wrote already in the other topic:
Talked yesterday with a sophisticated (especially in chassis /bogie technology) technical guy from a »big railway operator«. His comment on the desaster: Obviously, according to the CCTV images, even the push-pull head might have done it through the curve (– good design of bogie and center of mass). For the genset coach, at both ends: worse behaviour. Seems to start tilting out (in the meaning of turning upside down – not »the« tiliting like Talgo-pendular). Result as known.
What he mentioned, too: A 2' bogie with an push-pull-string (better: traction rod, over even »barrón« in spanish) is absolutely unusual! Nobody would do this normally, at least because of the unnecessary weight you're getting with this!

Keep in mind also, that the level of uncompensated lateral acceleration at track level, according to ORE regulations, could be as high as 2,5 m/s^2. This is, of course, valid for tilting trains only, due to the acceleration reasonable for the people on board.
The value alone is independent if used by tilting train or »classic« train. However, Y/Q needs to be respected anytime.

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Re: Evaluando la serie 730

Mensajepor VFP » 14 Ago 2013, 13:22

Hi Heineken,

In this discussion would be nice to have separated two concepts. One is about the genset characteristics and behavior, both in normal conditions and extreme conditions of circulation, and the other is the comparison against other type of bogies, mass center, etc disposition.

Have in mind, and I think you have enough knowledge about this topic, that the behavior after the derailment is totally and completely unpredictable, and also the exact causes of the derailment, I mean the exact and specific time and situation that makes the difference between derail or not derail.

I totally agree that Talgo 730 was made just for political purposes and never, ever, the original serie 130 was designed to be modified such as s/730. The refurbishment of the original serie with two gensets between the tractive locomotives and the rest of the train modifies substantially the mechanical behavior of the train, but there is a large difference in acknowledge this and make the statement of with other train setting the derailment wouldn't happen. I don't say you did but to avoid this kind of statements.

With Talgos happens one thing: where the first coach goes, the rest follow. If the first makes the curve, probably the rest would do. But with typical coach train compositions we know sadly well what happens if a coach derails, the after goers make a beautiful scrum of metal and dust. One important thing here is how the coaches are hooked between them. A weak coupling (at least in some freedom degrees) could save a bunch of coaches from a derailment if the coupler breaks.

Regards

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Re: Evaluando la serie 730

Mensajepor Taurus_1116 » 14 Ago 2013, 18:49

En este hilo y en el del accidente se ha repetido unas cuantas veces que la pendulación es un sistema que únicamente añade confort al viajero, permitiendo mayores acelaraciones laterales no compensadas sin salirse de las condiciones de confort, pero que en ningún caso aporta seguridad y no permite elevar la velocidad segura en curva.

Bien, esto parece obvio para la pendulación de los Talgos, pero entiendo que si se tratase de basculación activa la cosa sería muy diferente, ¿no? Pues en este caso el centro de gravedad se desplaza hacia el interior de la curva (y se rebaja algo su altura) y el efecto es, desde el punto de vista de la caja del vehículo, como si se añadiese un peralte adicional, lo que a priori debería permitir mayor aceleración lateral sin riesgo de vuelco. Por eso entiendo asimismo que los vehículos con basculación activa cuyo funcionamiento está optimizado (o sea, el recorrido pregrabado, lo que permite que la basculación se adapte instantáneamente a la curvatura sin retardo) pueden circular a tipo D. ¿Me equivoco?

Naturalmente, lo anterior sólo vale para aumentar la seguridad ante vuelco, no influiría (o lo haría de modo menos obvio) en el hipotético riesgo de que las pestañas treparan el carril.

Agradecería correcciones si estoy errado.

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Re: Evaluando la serie 730

Mensajepor heineken » 14 Ago 2013, 21:23

Taurus_1116 escribió:(…)

Sorry again for answering in english:
Everything regarding the tilting technologies – active or passive – is about comfort for the passengers.
The lateral acceleration on the track is on both – classic or tilting trains – the same. So, for both the same limitations are valid.
And as I noted already, the absolut maximum which is defined (by ORE) is about 2,5 m/s^2 in regular operation.
You will find various literature – print and online – which is going to tell you: From 2 m/s^2 the zone of possible derailment begins. We should consider, that this limit is quite higher.
Where this limit exactly is, depends on various details: Track depended ones (don't miss the limit for Y(qst)=60 kN – or higher, according to the rail infrastructure operator) and, of course, a lot of railcar details.
Now, with the Talgo system, exactly with the type of construction of the »rodales« – which means the automatic steering system and the type of independent wheels – as well as the low center of gravity (low center of mass) you have quite good conditions for a big area of safety. Which means, beyond your »normal« specification the coaches are homologized for, i.e. according to the UIC 518.

VFP escribió:In this discussion would be nice to have separated two concepts. One is about the genset characteristics and behavior, both in normal conditions and extreme conditions of circulation, and the other is the comparison against other type of bogies, mass center, etc disposition.

Don't know I am understanding this right, so maybe a mistake by me: How should we take the genset characteristics in any relation, without comparision to other concepts?

Have in mind, and I think you have enough knowledge about this topic, that the behavior after the derailment is totally and completely unpredictable, and also the exact causes of the derailment, I mean the exact and specific time and situation that makes the difference between derail or not derail.
(…)
With Talgos happens one thing: where the first coach goes, the rest follow. If the first makes the curve, probably the rest would do.

I am totally with you in this matter. That is just the effect of an »articulated truck«, nothing else. In the case we have seen, this drive endend at the wall, in an obviously unfavourable degree of angle. So, in this meaning I am that concerned about the characteristics of the genset coach.
(I shall try to point it out in an sketch, later on, what disturbes me.)
BTW, thanks for the plesantry. I believe, not as much as you (knowledge) :wink:

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Re: Evaluando la serie 730

Mensajepor Taurus_1116 » 14 Ago 2013, 22:42

heineken escribió:
Taurus_1116 escribió:(…)

Sorry again for answering in english:
Everything regarding the tilting technologies – active or passive – is about comfort for the passengers.
The lateral acceleration on the track is on both – classic or tilting trains – the same. So, for both the same limitations are valid.
And as I noted already, the absolut maximum which is defined (by ORE) is about 2,5 m/s^2 in regular operation.
You will find various literature – print and online – which is going to tell you: From 2 m/s^2 the zone of possible derailment begins. We should consider, that this limit is quite higher.
Where this limit exactly is, depends on various details: Track depended ones (don't miss the limit for Y(qst)=60 kN – or higher, according to the rail infrastructure operator) and, of course, a lot of railcar details.

Thx for the explanation. Now it's clear to me that I was wrong.

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ferroviario_2
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Re: Evaluando la serie 730

Mensajepor ferroviario_2 » 19 Ago 2013, 11:32

¡Atención!, pregunta: ¿Cuántas ramas 730 hay ahora en servicio de las 15 licitadas? ¿Va a influir el accidente de Santiago en el destino de este "maravilloso" tren?

Se me ocurre que Renfe tiene quizás un plan B como la hibridización de las 334:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/angel4000/8654769840/in/photostream/

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robertinho
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Re: Evaluando la serie 730

Mensajepor robertinho » 19 Ago 2013, 13:31

ferroviario_2 escribió:¡Atención!, pregunta: ¿Cuántas ramas 730 hay ahora en servicio de las 15 licitadas? ¿Va a influir el accidente de Santiago en el destino de este "maravilloso" tren?

11,5 - 1.
La media es porque esta en reforma.


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